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[SF] Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate Peace Talks - KBP Summit

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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 04:49:00 - [1] As of 03:00 hours this evening the council of free captains concluded a formal vote ratifying the peace terms provisionally agreed by the Daisho Syndicate and Fraction leadership 48 hours before. I can now report that by a margin of 41/35 (3 abstentions) the terms were adopted and peace with the Daisho Syndicate restored. I've been in contact with Daisho Diplomatic staff in the last few hours and received their permission to share the text of the agreement with the IGS (since this matter and key test of negotiations in the "new providence" environment has received quite a lot of comment and wider interest from the community at large). So here it is. Quote: Formal agreement of mutual space usage and transit between The Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate û the alliances agree that neither party will attempt to restrict the movement rights of the other in any system in Eve space. Star Fraction and Daisho pilots will travel wherever they choose in Providence and the former KBP pocket û including the systems KBP, B-WPLZ, E-YCML, T-UO0T, and Y9-MDG. The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Completing Escalations originating elsewhere in space is accepted. ItÆs important to note that Star Fraction pilots do not travel in nullsec freespace to annoy or irritate our neighbours or to share intel on blues or neutrals. We will cooperate in the destruction of reds and are happy to help our friends destroy mutual reds. Neither Daisho Syndicate nor Star Fraction officers or members will attempt to ôorderö or otherwise ôdemandö action from captains of the other organization and will respect free transit rights at all times. Daisho Syndicate will formally apologize for the destruction of ClairXXXÆs Myrmidon class Battlecruiser in B-W system and reimburse the full value of the loss. This agreement represents a binding settlement between Daisho Syndicate and the Star Fraction but will need ratification by a majority vote of the free captains of the Fraction before it can enter formal agreement. Until ratification occurs and is communicated to Daisho Syndicate management it is understood and expected that conflict continues and no additional losses will be addressed in reimbursement or penalty claims hereafter. * So that concludes the issue to this point. The Star Fraction is content that diplomacy and respectful persuasion has made progress here alongside action in space and clash of fleets. And the first significant difference in opinion in system usage in the "new providence" has been resolved by direct negotiation between involved parties without external interference. Quite a huge difference to the enforced dominions and enclosed-standings bullying of the CVA-era and slaver-pet-holders. Questions and comments are welcome.** True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:59:00 - [2] @Major Templar 1. With regard to the issue of Daisho Syndicate pilotÆs ôadmission to slaveryö we consulted with our allies in the UshraÆkhan and two of their leaders conducted personal investigations in the KBP pocket to assure us all that these were simply throwaway comments in local chat rather than reflecting any genuine regression to CVA-era slave-holding aspirations in Providence. In our estimation now this was simply a case of ôboastingö in local chat to provoke a fight more than anything else. 2. Yes, it has always been our view that space is free and that closing off space to neutral transit is a regressive policy. We have always encouraged pilots to stand up and fight for themselves and take their freedom, not kneel and beg for it as a hand out from a ôstronger powerö. What this period of war/diplomacy has demonstrated is precisely what weÆve always said: the best guarantee to freespace is to maintain a strong personal capability and be prepared to fight those who would restrict your movements. The Star Fraction has never promised to give freedom to the weak. It is our role and our passion to show the way for the strong to stand up and ensure their freedoms against oppression through persuasion, discussion, negotiation and yes, by main force of arms if necessary. Here we have shown that the Free Captains are prepared to fight to ensure our rights of free transit in the open stars. We have shown that if one fights, if one is prepared to make a territorial power bleed in counter action and guerrilla presence, if one shows resolution and cunning, commitment and courage in equal measure then the territorialist will come back to the table and reach afford in preference to having you as an enemy. I commend this example to ANYONE and ANY organization in New Eden that wishes to travel freely on the frontier in New Eden. Talk, negotiate, assert your freedoms, and if anyone wishes to deny those freedoms then stand up and fight for them. 3. Now on the specific issue of why we do not feel responsible to ôguaranteeö the safety and freedoms of other travellers it should become apparent that we want people to stand up on their own two feet rather than be content to shelter in another powerÆs shadow. We want neutrals to face the same challenges and choices we have faced. We want them to conduct diplomacy, to present credible threat, we want them to demonstrate to the xenophobe that respectful free space is better than roadblocks and repression. (And this demonstration generally needs black ops, bombers, economic suppression and credible threat). But letÆs look at this from the other angle. Say a neutral pilot is ganked on KBP gate by an NBSI power in Providence: ôWhy did you let that happen? (says the neutral to the Fraction) ôLet what happen?ö (Say we) ôLet me get killed by those xenophobes! You were at the gate and did nothing to protect meö ôGo and get yourself a long rifle and a dark coat, come back in the wee hours and weÆll do nothing to stop you taking your justified revenge either.ö True freedom comes with consequence both for the neutral who is ganked and the territorial power that committed aggression and invited revenge. I positively encourage any neutral pilot who is unjustifiably ganked on the Dital gate in KBP to invest in a Stealth Bomber and spend a part of your schedule stalking the economic functions and bounty hunting of your enemies for as long as it takes them to come to ôpeace termsö and realize that perhaps NRDS respect for neutral transit might be a better policy for their own peace of mind. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:00:00 - [3] You understand Major Templar. I donÆt want a Providence Region filled with defenceless sheep ratting away in belts with a big bad dominant power ôguaranteeingö their safety at the cost of their political independence on forced uniform standings (aka CVA-era). I want a Providence Region filled with armed neutrals with long rifles and the will to take revenge on anyone or anything that restricts their free movement in the open stars. I will sell those guys their rifles in Choonka, Kamela, Dihra, IÆll watch them go past the gates in KBP with a salute to a comrade of the future. The Star Fraction agenda is utterly subversive to all notions of monolithic territorial control. We undermine standings enclosure by our very presence. Our example puts empowered personal responsibility on the centre stage and I encourage any neutral pilot reading this thread with a lust for adventure and the open frontier to come to Providence with your eyes open. Come enjoy the freespace system the Fraction has opened in YWSO, but come with your cloak and your long rifle and get ready to fight for the freedom you and I love because though the CVA-era is coming to an end the ideological fight for genuine freespace in nullsec is only just beginning. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 13:24:02 Originally by: Merdaneth This reminds me of the fable of the Anarchist Tragedy I think you linked the wrong thread. Here is The Anarchist Tragedy. Its a very interesting read now in the context of the changes that have come to providence. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:01:00 - [5] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 14:02:42 Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction agreed that parties need to ask permission to anchor towers? And that some parts of space (high value moons) are off limits? I thought that the need to ask permission was one of the things you despised about the CVA policy? It is. On this issue you are going to need to reconcile the understanding that what the alliance voted for and what I as a free captain believe may not be one and the same thing. For example, in the system we installed an infrastructure hub (YWSO) there is absolutely no neccessity or expectation that neutrals or friendlies would need to ask permission to anchor towers. Quote: Hmmmm... CVA space was open for all to bounty hunt, but you just agreed that SF pilots need to refrain from bounty hunting in Daisho space. Are you admitting that when resources are limited one needs to come to an agreement how to share resources? CVA space was only "free" to those that accepted the dominant ideology of amarrian imperialism so do not wander into falsehood here. But yes, SF alliance has voted (by 41-35) to refrain from bounty hunting in 3 systems claimed by Daisho Syndicate. I may or may not agree with that aspect of the decision but as SF executor I have presented the terms and done the diplomacy neccessary. I do not believe that the resources are practically limited by the way. Having seen the wealth that is generated by upgrades to system infrastructure hubs I believe a single system can support far more population density than the KBP pocket has seen before. And again. We express our belief on this in the way we have upgraded the infrastructure in YWSO system and invited all to make use of the benefits with no restrictions whatsoever. Quote: Also, if there already is no room for Star Fraction and Daisho ships to both bounty hunt in the stated systems, would you think there is room for others in those systems? I don't happen to believe this. Bounty hunting in belts is a very minor element of upgraded system income. As again, you are going to have to accept that my opinion may well differ from the SF opinion expressed by popular vote. On this issue you will find that all Free Captains will be speaking for themselves. Quote: Do you think Daisho Syndicate are justified in closing their space because they need the limited resources themselves? Again (entirely for myself) No. I don't think its justified or neccessary and I think in the long term open skies and free trade is far more progressive (and profitable) for all concerned. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian What of those who Daisho has not negotiated with? If other entities are not satisfied that reparations have been made for their admission of slavery . . . will Starfaction aggress other such entities while hostilities commence in B-W pocket? If these entities avoid aggressing Star Fraction ships in the course of their activities they will remain neutral to us and can go about their business with absolutely no involvement or censure from us. We will never intentionally aggress a neutral to "defend space" or limit their freedom of movement on the frontier. We encourage all free pilots to do as their conscience and self-interest dictate. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. And of course the CVA being filthy slavers were setting their standings on the basis of KOS to non-filthy slavers. I'm surprised you needed to ask the question. (Actually not that surprised, you are PIE and dishonest debate is your stock in trade). True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 17:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Furb Killer While the mail in that situation probably wasnt too smart written (I remember the incident), you apparently already forgot what actually happened. While we are on the subject Furb Killer. Who are you? You've been quite active in anti-SF posting the last week and involved in a lot of our threads but you don't display your corp or alliance info. Would you be prepared to introduce yourself a little and explain your personal interest in these discussions? Who do you represent (if anybody)? I think it would be polite in the circumstances if we knew who you were in a political context. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 01:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Grr Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. Just to confirm you are in fact wrong. CVA has never forced anybody to set anybody else red nor will it ever I expect. As a member of the CVA it is almost expected you will tell bare-faced lies on the IGS. I'm glad you have chosen not to disappoint. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 15:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Furb Killer Not everyone can have such, uhm, interesting career switches as you have. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying to claim somehow that I haven't always been a freespace revolutionary fighting for the cause of revolution and political freedom in new eden? Perhaps you are confusing me for somebody else. Quote: I dont represent anyone, besides myself. Which is also why i have my alliance and corp tickers disabled, since it wouldnt add anything to enable them. Well its not quite so simple is it. As you suggested I looked up your name and found you associated with Tread Alliance, an entity that earned its -10 status from the Star Fraction for firing on Free Captains (from neutral) with no warning or diplomatic interaction, simply because you were flying with the Slavers of the CVA and their creatures in the I-RED alliance. This puts you in the category of a CVA "pet" brought to Providence to shoot their political enemies to help them bulk out the imperialist defenses around the G-5/KBP pipes. Quote: I dont have any special political ideas besides that i believe in NRDS and like to promote it, instead of destroying it. I dont own slaves if you are wondering that. So you believe that NRDS is best promoted by supporting a monolithic Amarrian nationalist power that supports slavery and the expansion of Amarrian Imperial law into the frontier. From that I believe you have made the internal choice to view the surrender of personal independance a fair exchange for the "safety" that CVA military used to provide those who followed their laws. In essence you are arguing that a house slave in the villa of an Amarrian slaver is better off than a rebel in the woods outside because the slave is protected by the slaver's household guards given free roam inside the kitchens and domestic quarters. Your argument is that NRDS can only word with submission to a strong tyrannical authority that decides who must do what and as such I refute it utterly. Quote: I previously already explained my personal interests, but i will do so again. While I never really understood (or still understand) most of SFs decissions, which is also why i here ask for clarification since they seem to be random to me, I always applauded you for sticking to (some of) your principles and staying NRDS, unlike your well known friends. Which is another thing about SF i dont understand, but that is probably just me. The problem is you are a house slave of the CVA asking a free fighter to explain "freedom". And from your perspective I will freely admit that freedom is dirty, messy, inexact and frankly dangerous. It involves imperfect individuals making imperfect arrangements and cooexisting in an environment where you must think with your wits and conduct diplomacy with every stranger you see. I understand why it terrifies you. I really do. But then you are conditioned to toiling in the house of the "good master" who protects you, provides a wall around the courtyard where you work, who clothes you and makes all the decisions what are quite scary to make. He provides you your red list, your blue list, tells you who is good and who is bad and only asks that you obey his every command as price for your evening meal and sleeping pallet. People get used to slavery. You have become conditioned to it. I know that freedom worries you immensely and you fear the absence of the "good master" will require you to deal with other people who are not cowed into similar submissive thought patterns that you can understand. Quote: However what i see lately is that SF is throwing their principles away for the sake of comfort, which disapoints me. But what you cannot say. Is that SF is "hypocritical" to our principles. You have never given the impression of understanding our principles and without that knowledge how can you provide meaningful critique? Better you simply admit your ignorance and ask. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 15:52:00 - [12] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 15:55:27 As a note to the bashing bishop (using yellow text to highlight lies doesn't make them true) Originally by: Archbishop 1. Fails to provide free transit rights for anyone but yourselves. How can we "fail" in something we have never claimed to do? I advise the pernicious prelate to try reading our founding principles again and see if he can find us committing to becoming a police force and dominating others with our standings regime. Quote: 2. Doesn't investigate the admission of slavery. We did. We asked the Ushra'khan to as well. They investigated they found it was simply unwise local boasts by hot-headed pilots in KBP local with no foundation in reality. But I imagine since reading seems such a difficult accomplishment for the kibitzing curate we can forgive him this failure of engagement with the thread. Quote: 3. Allows a NBSI entity to continue to control space and shoot everyone else. Allows. Hmmm, by which he means that we don't force others to adopt their standings to ours and unify a red list that we'll enforce with fire and sword if its deviated from. Sounds a bit like we're being accused of failing because we aren't standings enclosurists like the CVA. But unlike the CVA we have done our bit for freespace radicalism here. We have defended our right to free transit wherever we choose by showing our willingness to fight and fight hard if these rights are opposed and denied. So we have succeeded in bringing an example to the daylight, a template if you will for how corporations and organizations can best ensure their own freedoms through direct action and creditable threat in space. Concepts I'm sure go right over the head of the empty-headed ecclesiast in my quotes sadly. After all, being an officer in a corporation with no signficant capability in space does rather limit the capacity for mutual military respect and weaken the position at negotiations. As indeed does being on record for the last five years as a tongue-drooling lickspittal of the Amarrian Imperialists in Providence who were happy to harbour any kind of pirates and NBSI raiders just so long as they sounded "Amarr Victor!" at the right times in parades and kept their piracy, ransoming and extortion rackets outside of the borders of Providence. Remember Garst Tyrell priest? We do. I suspect the summit does also. So 3 strikes out for 3 accusations. Not a good start. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 17:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Syyl'ara I think the larger and relevant point here is that since you can't even agree on whether or not you can trust each other enough to have diplomatic relations demonstrates that any attempt to engage in them would produce about as useful a result as this waste of bandwidth we're all looking at right now. Lets not confuse Daisho with PIE. Daisho have a presence in space and have conducted negotiations with us. PIE on the other hand are utterly worthless and present no value in discussion whatsoever. The waste of bandwidth is generally PIE pilots trying desperately to appear relevant in an political situation which is rapidly rendering their "big brother" CVA as meaningless as they are. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. I care nothing for the opinions of people who are too frightened to stand up and speak with their own identities. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:21:00 - [15] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 19:22:40 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Lamentably, simply impugning the character of those who raise the issue isn't going to make it go away. I have no idea who is raising the "issue" through your lips though. I prefer to know your "masters" affiliations to better understand the bias before replying substantively to anything you say. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I find it charming that you evaluate the validity of any point based on who said it. Its called personal responsibility and consequence for your deeds. Welcome to the world of Star Fraction politics and being expected to stand up for what you believe in. The fact you are hiding your identity suggests either you are ashamed of it, or using a fake ID to make dishonest argumentation for malicious purposes. Neither alternative persuades me to take you seriously. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I notice you have continued to fail to address my point. You haven't made any. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 20:30:52 Originally by: Furb Killer I cant be bothered to reply to all your points... Thats because you have nothing to say. Your master did all the thinking for you and now you are feeling alone and afraid without his orders. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Archbishop Or perhaps Jade are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to speak if they "back it up in space" with a sword and gun? No surprise to see you defending the "right" for the coward to cloak their identity and smear from the shadows really. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 23:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? Ah, so now we have a new excuse not to answer. Will I ever get a straight answer here? All of IGS is watching... I notice you haven't answered MY question. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 18:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Actually, I did: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave All of IGS is watching... Come now, anyone would think you had something to hide... Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 23:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 23:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Dewgong Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. Why is it so hard to figure out that by "we", she is talking about any and every single being in New Eden? Everyone from the newest pilots to the oldest, slaves to CEOs, etc. Oh you are saying she's simply insanely flapping her gums and claiming to speak to everyone at the same time and using the holy font of cloaked identity to persuade the summit of her providence. I thought as much of course but I was too polite to say so. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Archbishop in fact I can only recall one occasion where she has admitted one... and she has never been questioned about it since... This was my original point: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. Lets return to that: Were compromises made to secure a peace deal with Daisho? Are you quite stupid? Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. There was robust internal discussion that led to a majority of Free Captains supporting a ceasefire on the terms given. This is by definition a compromise since the natural state of play following an attack on SF vessels would be war. This ridiculous question-that-is-not-a-question. Is the reason by the galnet mouthpieces of cloaked identities are not respected in debate. You have nothing to say. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I'm glad to have finally gotten an answer out of you. You really need to check your own behaviour. You spent 2 pages doing everything but asking a question. When you employ dishonest debating tactics to go with your dishonest use of a cloaked identity it will not impress those who prefer to discuss matters in the open with clear integrity and reputation on view. Quote: Sadly the level of personal abuse you have directed at me is unlikely to win you any new friends. You may care to note throughout the course of this discussion I have tried to remain civil in face of such provocation. I tell you clearly that your choice of PR mouthpiece is provoking. You are insulting me by using an identity labelled a "slave". It makes me want to kill you when I find out who you are. Your civility is irrelevent and I wish to make no friends from the ranks of those too cowardly to speak directly in their own name and force an "enslaved" capsuleer to do the talking for them. Quote: I'm glad to see you approched the peace treaty pragmatically. Holding space in Providence is a significant paradigm shift for Star Fraction (and indeed Ushra'Khan). I do hope you can remain true to the principles which make you unique. I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. But though it is true we have not before made a soveignty claim - its hardly a paradigm shift since we have since founding embraced the development of infrastructure for the benefit of commerce and free trade in 0.0. True the collapse of the CVA has given a window of opportunity in Providence, but its a strategic rather than ideological shift that occured here. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. Now I am confused. I'm infering here that this states you believe you are remaining true to your principles. Yet barely a couple of posts ago you said you were making compromises. Perhaps you can explain to me how this is possible? See this is why Amarrians get a bad reputation for dishonest debate and mumbling nonsense. You are not confused, you however a dishonest waste of skin. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/04/2010 06:55:17 I always wonder why the same question gets asked when the answer is publically available. i know these folks can read, since they are posting. well I am making the assumption that their pod interface isn't all coloring book pictures... This a new answer avoidance strategy, although I see you are still clinging to insulting the questioner too. Clearly the original post only covers the particulars of the peace deal. It does not discuss how it meshes into the wider philosophies of Star Fraction. Again: How did Star Fraction reconcile its principles and the compromises made to secure the peace deal? Stop lying you deceitful little worm. I said we'd made one compromise on this deal. And that choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy and formal membership vote. In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. Hence the need for a formal vote to put aside our collective vengeance in the interests of ongoing relations and focus on the larger goal of removing CVA and their remaining creatures from Providence. This is the same "compromise" as a warrior makes when accepting terms of truce to discuss matters beyond the exchange of weapon fire. For you to suggest we have compromised ideals of the Fraction is precisely the kind of unsupportable and laughable fiction that we've come to expect from Amarrian loyalists on this summit. The peace settlement confirmed the free captain's full independence from territorial claim and asserted our rights to go where we choose. As a "questioner" you deserve to be insulted because you insult the summit with the low standard of your petty manipulations and dishonest argumentation. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:49:00 - [29] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/04/2010 15:50:13 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave You do realise you just implied that Star Fraction diplomacy up until this point was not mature? No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Quote: Additionally: this was the only compromise? Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term? As tomahawk as advised you. Learn something of the freespace movement and our agendas before making yourself look (more) foolish. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Clearly you do as follows: Quote: In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. This states that normally people that are red to you stay red. Quote: choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy Here you state that it was mature of you, and rightly so I have to say, to use diplomacy to resolve a trivial difference. However, the second quote clearly contradicts the first. The normal process of Star Fraction diplomacy is not mature as it refuses to acknowledge what you yourself describe as mature diplomacy However, this is to distract from the my question. I note again you have chosen not to answer it. Let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term? Have you stopped telling lies yet? True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 06:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Nefher Zhila Not one concise answer to any question that you know full well puts forth the many weaknesses and truths for what is, in matter of fact, nothing more than an anarchist organization with a piracy touch here and there and a knack for not building a dammed thing worth remembering. You seem to be stumbling over your words a little and failing to make much sense. None of the anonymous insult proxies and cloaked identities apparent in this thread have demonstrated anything much beyond the desperate straits of the Amarrian Nationalist movement. And to answer your misunderstandings on the issue of what the Star Fraction builds I recommend you follow the link the True Knowledge in my signature. Approach with an open mind and you will find much to surprise you. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 21:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Archbishop So the Star Fraction believes in "the bully wins" and "the weak perish" ideology then? After all while your fantasy world of everyone fighting for their right to freespace is certainly amusing it's hardly realistic. You've never stopped trying to force your ideology on others before why stop now? In fact in the past the CVA was much more powerful then the Star Fraction yet you repeatedly declared war on them. Read the True Knowledge of the Star Fraction (linked in my sig) see if you can understand some of it. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:14:00 - [33] Originally by: The Cosmopolite No more, no less. I know that the example of the three stooges of Amarrian paramilitarism û Archbishop, Blake and Merdaneth û has taught you to abuse language and indulge in distortions and misleading paraphrases but it really will not do. The treaty dealt with the relationship between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate and in particular the principle of freedom of movement and resource exploitation and development. It is not appropriate in a treaty between equals to engage in attempts to force a particular ideology on the other party. There is no need or indeed any desire for such a vain enterprise. Does diplomacy stop there? No, we continue to talk on all manner of subjects. Speaking of diplomacy, I want to deal with the suggestion, bruited about by Amarrians and their lickspittles as if it is holy writ, that 'compromise' is a dirty word signifying surrender of principles and capitulation of one's interests to another. The plain fact is that it is not necessarily so. Certainly, if one compromises on one's principles and ideals that is a capitulation. But compromising on the essence of principles and ideals is not the same thing as compromising with others on actions, such as the conduct of resource exploitation or the logistics of infrastructure development or many similar practical matters. Debates about principles and ideals as they relate to the Star Fraction are typically rather synthetic when it comes to criticisms from the usual suspects. An artificial situation is conjured up (or a real situation is distorted to fit the purpose) and by a sort of arid and empty algebra of irrational numbers the mendacious calculator will attempt a QED amounting to the hoary old stock formula: "They are liars and hypocrites because I say they are liars and hypocrites and it is outrageous to suggest that I am in my turn a liar and a hypocrite." The real trick in a principled life is to determine what means will best bring about the desired principled ends, with the choice of means determined by those ends. The Star Fraction has long been committed to diplomacy before violence with those who respect diplomacy. The basic working environment of diplomacy is one where each party is willing to compromise on some element of its starting position in order to achieve a settlement conducive to the principles of each party. Compromise on actions, not ideals, is the essential requirement of diplomacy. Those that abjure compromise in all circumstances are those who repudiate diplomacy by default. It is, ultimately, no surprise that justifiable and mutual compromise on actions is being portrayed as shameful by those who supported the previous regime in slaver Providence. After all, it fell because of a failure of leadership, a failure of politics and a failure of diplomacy. I have seen CVA-led Providence Holders Coalition in its full martial panoply, united and led tolerably well, and there is no way that military power would have fallen as swiftly as the CVA-failed Providence Holders Coalition did. Ultimately, our critics are deeply conflicted, and no surprise either, the truth is that these events only reaffirm our principles, not undermine them. They reaffirm our principles with regard to free movement and the exploitation and development of resources. They reaffirm our principles with regard to our NRDS RoE and the standings of others. They reaffirm our committment to diplomacy as a reasonable alternative to force. They reaffirm that we do not hold space, only infrastructure. The Cosmopolite Since you seem to have missed the full and detailed rebuttle to all your points thus far. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Rodj Blake Operation Castrato: a Star Fraction operation that even according to Jade Constantine ended in failure. I thought you claimed everything I said was false ... or now only when it suits you. If you want to quote my credibility in declaring a failure I imagine that means you will yield to my credibility on declaring our successes. That would be the honest position. Ah, but then you are an Amarrian Nationalist. Honesty is not exactly your forte. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Rodj Blake My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. And mine was you double standards. You accept my words of a failure but you doubt them when I declare a success. You can't have it both ways. You are caught on the horns of your own deceit here Rodj Blake. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:43 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:22 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:10 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. And mine was you double standards. You accept my words of a failure but you doubt them when I declare a success. You can't have it both ways. You are caught on the horns of your own deceit here Rodj Blake. Deceit? I'm sure that I'm not the only who's noticed that your favourite tactic when confronted with something that you don't like these days seems to be to throw around accusations of deceit rather than to address the point. Which is quite odd really, given SF's track record where decption is concerned. Double standards? Do you really want to get into a discussion on double standards? Perhaps we should start with your defence of SF ganging with pirates shortly after condeming PIE for possibly flying alongside alleged pirates? You don't ever make points Rodj Blake, you just keep lying and making false smears while avoiding all comment on your own failures. You have spent five years or more inventing nonsense about the Fraction and watched your own corporation fade to a mere shadow of irrelevance while you have been doing it. Nothing you say has the least value these days, its all as worthless as your reputation in space. True Knowledge

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